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**Tradesman** · 11-14-2012, 05:06 PM

I'd throw out two sets for strong consideration, then a few others, the 2 would be the Tridents 2133/CL9 set F3-2133C9D-16GTX or the Ripjaws X 2133/CL9 F3-2133C9D-16GXH as best fitting what you are looking for (both about $135 at the Egg) I've had both sets in your mobo with a 3570K, and both took a minimal voltage adjustment - the F14 BIOS may have taken care of that so they will run straight up under XMP.

I wouldn't worry a whole lot about the QVL, they simply test with whatever is readily available....and....seldom test under XMP, generally mobo manufacturers test at the mobos default of 1333 or 1600 so they aren't real reliable if you want to test at full speed/freq. Might take a look at my info thread here:

http://www.gskill.us/forum/showthread.php?t=10566

Other strong contenders would be the Tridents 1866/CL8 F3-1866C8D-16GTX ($120), which OCs well and you could prob easily run at 2133/CL9 or for a bit more bandwidth you could try the 2400/CL10 Tridents which your 3570K can quite possibly run (not all 3570Ks can run 2400), these are a little more, $140, but not much and if your 3570K can handle them, get a bit of a boost bandwidth wise. If not can be dropped to 2133/CL9, but are also there if you ever decide to jump to a 3770K or use them on a different system that can handle 2400, and chances are good yours can run them (I'm running the 32GB set of these with a 3570K at 4.7GHz in a 24/7 rig)

**jcl333** · 11-14-2012, 06:19 PM

Hello Tradesman, and thanks for the quick reply. It feels much better making a buying decision knowing that someone will have my back on it ;-)

Originally posted by Tradesman View Post

I'd throw out two sets for strong consideration, then a few others, the 2 would be the Tridents 2133/CL9 set F3-2133C9D-16GTX or the Ripjaws X 2133/CL9 F3-2133C9D-16GXH as best fitting what you are looking for (both about $135 at the Egg) I've had both sets in your mobo with a 3570K, and both took a minimal voltage adjustment - the F14 BIOS may have taken care of that so they will run straight up under XMP.)

Those sound good. I see the second set is also available as a 32GB kit, and I see from your posts on this forum, including this one, that you have alot of experience running this much RAM in a system. This is a tempting option... Other than that, it is amazing how reasonably priced these are.

I don't mind bumping up voltages a little if that is all it needs, just as long as I am not spending hours/days getting it to be stable.

Originally posted by Tradesman View Post

I wouldn't worry a whole lot about the QVL, they simply test with whatever is readily available....and....seldom test under XMP, generally mobo manufacturers test at the mobos default of 1333 or 1600 so they aren't real reliable if you want to test at full speed/freq. Might take a look at my info thread here:

http://www.gskill.us/forum/showthread.php?t=10566)

Wow, OK, point taken. Thanks for that info. I work as a server admin, and we can't use RAM that isn't certified for the server we use it in, so I was thinking along those lines. I won't do that anymore, different world ;-)

Originally posted by Tradesman View Post

Other strong contenders would be the Tridents 1866/CL8 F3-1866C8D-16GTX ($120), which OCs well and you could prob easily run at 2133/CL9 or for a bit more bandwidth you could try the 2400/CL10 Tridents which your 3570K can quite possibly run (not all 3570Ks can run 2400), these are a little more, $140, but not much and if your 3570K can handle them, get a bit of a boost bandwidth wise. If not can be dropped to 2133/CL9, but are also there if you ever decide to jump to a 3770K or use them on a different system that can handle 2400, and chances are good yours can run them (I'm running the 32GB set of these with a 3570K at 4.7GHz in a 24/7 rig)

* Wow, 1866 at CL8, that sounds really attractive and only $120. But, I am assuming that the XMP profile will match the model number, will it be painful to get the settings right to manually set them for 2133 CL9? Or do they have multiple profiles?

* What is the model number of the 2400/CL10 Tridents you are referring to? Is it the the F3-2400C10D-16GTX on newegg? I see it has a fair number of mostly positive reviews, with some difficulties around getting 2400. This also would be totally fine with me, I agree with your logic of having some headroom for future use even if you can't get 2400. So, I would assume that in this case, the XMP would be for 2400, and if you wanted to do 2133 I would need to get those settings from somewhere and put them in manually, yes?

* Huh, you know, when I picked up my i5 3570K it was mainly because I could not see a reason to spend another $100 on the i7 3770K, but now I know there another possible reason, running at 2400. Although I still wonder if it is worth the bump in price. I actually had a time deciding between this CPU and going with the non-K i7 3770, the only reason being is that the non-K processors support VT-d and SR-IOV for virtualization. I still have 30 days left if I wanted to exchange it ;-) (bought at Micro Center). On Gigabytes product page they claim 2666 capability, but I imagine this is with a 3770K and high latency.

So, sounds like my options are the "safe bet" modules above running at 2133 on XMP with minor voltage tweaking, or some higher end modules with some headroom. I would go with the latter if there is a viable way for me to get the settings going without alot of hassle. Are these published somewhere on the site?

The thing I am happy about is that you are showing me modules that are doing these high speeds at CL9, or *maybe* 10 but only at the nosebleed speeds, which is fine.

Will I need a fan or special cooling for the really high speeds?

Thanks very much. I feel good that this is getting narrowed down. I look forward to your replies.

-JCL

**Tradesman** · 11-14-2012, 07:31 PM

I'll try to cover all, if I miss anything, yell at me

On the 32GB sets, shouldn't be a problem (the first three of these I went through, didn't come across a mobo that was ready to support any of them, so had to do basically the advanced timings myself, would suggest checking that the latest BIOS supports a tRFC (advanced timings area) in excess of 255 that can be difficult if not (300+ would be preferable), voltages should be minor if needed at all.

As far as RAM being 'certified' like I said in the info post, most of the manufacturers are now admitting they can't test all the DRAM out there and it is a sampling, they also are getting into saying they test at the base SPD which is generally always 1333/1600 to match up to mobo defaults.

1866 CL8, other than a slightly lower bandwidth, performance wise roughly equates to 2133/CL9, just as 2133/CL9 roughly equates to 2400/CL10 (again the higher (2400) provides slightly more bandwidth than 2133.

There are multiple Trident sets available those I'm thinking of are (since you brought up 32GB)

32GB 2400 F3-2400C10Q-32GTX $285 \
2133 F3-2133C9Q-32GTX $280 > CL is the number next to the C in the model #
1866 F3-1866C8Q-32GTX $240 /

16GB 2400 F3-2400C10D-16GTX $140
2133 F3-2133C9D-16GTX $135
1866 F3-1866C8D-16GTX $120

To drop freq and tighten timings, yes, it would be done manually, but rather easily, basically to start with 2400/CL10 that comes as 10-12-12-31 you would drop to 2133 9-11-11-31 and then if stable can play with the timings further to help increase performance.

As far as help, if needed I am in and out daily (I also screen all the new users for known Spammers and either Ban those I find before they can become members), so I check in off and on from about 5AM till around midnight each day.

Special fans, no, in fact, if you are using an oversize CPU cooler that might cause problems with the higher fins of the Tridents, the upper fins are removeable while leaving the side heatsinks attached (2 small screws). (I've run Tridents with and without the fins, with no appreciable rise in temps

Hope that covers all, regardless I'll be around, so just shout out

**jcl333** · 11-14-2012, 09:24 PM

Originally posted by Tradesman View Post

I'll try to cover all, if I miss anything, yell at me

No problem, I really appreciate your help.

Originally posted by Tradesman View Post

On the 32GB sets, shouldn't be a problem (the first three of these I went through, didn't come across a mobo that was ready to support any of them, so had to do basically the advanced timings myself, would suggest checking that the latest BIOS supports a tRFC (advanced timings area) in excess of 255 that can be difficult if not (300+ would be preferable), voltages should be minor if needed at all.

So, just go in there and see how high it will let you set the number?

Originally posted by Tradesman View Post

As far as RAM being 'certified' like I said in the info post, most of the manufacturers are now admitting they can't test all the DRAM out there and it is a sampling, they also are getting into saying they test at the base SPD which is generally always 1333/1600 to match up to mobo defaults.

Yep, I see that, there is a disclaimer at the top of the list for Gigabyte. I don't think very many people realize how "on their own" they are.

Originally posted by Tradesman View Post

1866 CL8, other than a slightly lower bandwidth, performance wise roughly equates to 2133/CL9, just as 2133/CL9 roughly equates to 2400/CL10 (again the higher (2400) provides slightly more bandwidth than 2133.

OK, I don't want to provoke a long and drawn-out discussion here, because I am sure it has been done, but what do you think about the conclusions of this article:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4503/s...he-best-ddr3/8 (link to conclusion page).

Basically, the author casts doubt on the value of things past DDR3-1600 on Sandy Bridge, or more specifically you really must also overclock the CPU as well to see the benefit. By the way, it was Anandtech that encouraged me to look at G.skill ;-)

What I am getting at is, if you "more or less" agree with it, then I think I would be very happy with a 1866 CL8 or 2133 CL9 kit for a good price, use XMP and be happy ;-)

Originally posted by Tradesman View Post

There are multiple Trident sets available those I'm thinking of are (since you brought up 32GB)

32GB 2400 F3-2400C10Q-32GTX $285 \
2133 F3-2133C9Q-32GTX $280 > CL is the number next to the C in the model #
1866 F3-1866C8Q-32GTX $240 /

16GB 2400 F3-2400C10D-16GTX $140
2133 F3-2133C9D-16GTX $135
1866 F3-1866C8D-16GTX $120[/QUOTE]

What is interesting here is, pretty much all of these kits you point to here are about $100 cheaper than any equivalent kit from Corsair. I have to admit, a small voice in the back of my mind is concerned that it might be too good to be true... or it might be that they are just that overpriced. But, I see so much good vibe on Anandtech and NewEgg, there has to be something to it.

Question: What is your take on going with 16Gig now, and adding an identical kit later to go to 32Gig? I know the XMP profiles are tied to the kit size, so I would guess you would have to do the timings manually, so no XMP if you do that. Would that be right?

Originally posted by Tradesman View Post

To drop freq and tighten timings, yes, it would be done manually, but rather easily, basically to start with 2400/CL10 that comes as 10-12-12-31 you would drop to 2133 9-11-11-31 and then if stable can play with the timings further to help increase performance.

OK, so you only have to mess with those 4 timings? You don't think I would have to mess with the many other "advanced" timings?

I don't mean to seem lazy by any means, but I read and article like this:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6372/m...gp-with-gskill
And I start to get a little grey hair ;-)

Originally posted by Tradesman View Post

As far as help, if needed I am in and out daily (I also screen all the new users for known Spammers and either Ban those I find before they can become members), so I check in off and on from about 5AM till around midnight each day.

Much appreciated ;-)

Originally posted by Tradesman View Post

Special fans, no, in fact, if you are using an oversize CPU cooler that might cause problems with the higher fins of the Tridents, the upper fins are removeable while leaving the side heatsinks attached (2 small screws). (I've run Tridents with and without the fins, with no appreciable rise in temps

I am using a Corsair H60 water cooler, it presents no issues at all to memory clearance. But also, it doesn't blow any air over the memory. I am using a Corsair Obsidian case, it is very open for clear airflow.

Originally posted by Tradesman View Post

Hope that covers all, regardless I'll be around, so just shout out

I really appreciate it.

At this moment, unless you feel strongly that I should go to 32GB, or that it will be difficult to add memory to go to 32GB later, I am leaning towards the 2133 kit you are recommending above - F3-2133C9D-16GTX, seems like the sweet spot based on what you have told me so far and looking at some of the reviews.

-JCL

**Tradesman** · 11-15-2012, 08:19 AM

Yes, on the tRFC can go in, see what it's set on under AUTO then see if it will allow for say typing in 325, if so then that should be good for up to 2400/32GB which with these sticks call for 314.

On the DRAM over 1600, if going with a K CPU, you are going to be wanting to OC or are just throwing money away there. Even if you don't OC right away, the K models can provide for faster/more power in the future which makes the investment a good one for futureproofing in the long run. So when building a performance system I try to go with the fastest available that fit's in the budget. With this point, even if you downclock it for the time being, it's available if new programs better utilize DRAM and bandwidth or if your computing continues top grow into other things that can be DRAM intensive or like VMs. As an example, I used to keep systems available in dual boot, so I could go to one and swap from say Win7 (my standard to Win8 or Vista or XP, to aid me in troubleshooting a rig or checking compatibility. This days, I just continue to work away in 7 and can pop up a Win8 or Vista or whatever in a VM and work both from the same computer. Also to get as much performance as possible, to me anyway, it takes a blend of the components working in relation to each other to avoid getting bottlenecked by a component such as CPU, drives, DRAM, GPU etc.

Corsair as an example, makes fine DRAM, as do many others and have been around a lot longer than GSkill, so they have better name recognition and can charge a premium price. Sort of like mobos, there use to be the big three Asus, GigaByte and MSI then Asus spun off a new no-name ASRock as a low end maker. ASRock started developing a name for itself, broke away and now is number 3 (last few times I looked, it passed MSI, and is headed towards knocking on GB's door. GSkill started getting a name for high quality and wide selection, then started pushing the envelope and heading more into performance DRAM while others stayed more static. Today GSkill has the widest selection I know of and continues to expand both in the States and world-wide....I pretty much stick w/ GSkill on all my builds unless I get a specification from a client, and even at that have more returns on Corsair, Crucial, Kingston, etc.

Fact is, I've only had a couple of bad sticks come my way. Generally when a problem appears here, it's more likely to be the mobo (BIOS), CPU (underpowered MC), PSU (fluctuating) or people mixing sets than it is a set of DRAM. Was told be GSKill awhile back, most of the sticks they get in for RMA generally test fine, about 10% of returns are actually 'bad' sticks.

Generally yes, when under clocking, it can mostly be done at the base timing level with no problem. Of course, same as with OCing, can always fine tune for better performance, but if wanting better performance, then tuning at the spec level is best.

Yes obviously you won't have trouble with height of the sticks with a water cooler, (depending on the config, but generally No), and as with all systems you want good airflow.

I'll finish by going back to an earlier statement or two, that I normally suggest getting the fastest and getting the most you can within the budget. Mixing sets, even of the same exact model can be problematic and at time you will run into instances where two sets just won't play nice together. So if thinking 32GB, I'd go with it now as a complete set, but it's up to the individual....if going that route generally GSkill and I and others are always in and out and have helped many get mixed sets to play nice, but again, at times you can't

**jcl333** · 11-15-2012, 06:15 PM

Once again, I thank your for your time and advice.

Originally posted by Tradesman View Post

Yes, on the tRFC can go in, see what it's set on under AUTO then see if it will allow for say typing in 325, if so then that should be good for up to 2400/32GB which with these sticks call for 314.

OK, I will check it out. I am betting it will work because there is at least one person on the newegg reviews who has this board with this memory kit.

Originally posted by Tradesman View Post

On the DRAM over 1600, if going with a K CPU, you are going to be wanting to OC or are just throwing money away there. Even if you don't OC right away, the K models can provide for faster/more power in the future which makes the investment a good one for futureproofing in the long run.

Fair enough, on my old i5 I was running at up to 4.4GHz with no issues at all. I will probably do something similar here.

Originally posted by Tradesman View Post

Corsair as an example, makes fine DRAM, as do many others and have been around a lot longer than GSkill, so they have better name recognition and can charge a premium price. Sort of like mobos, there use to be the big three Asus, GigaByte and MSI then Asus spun off a new no-name ASRock as a low end maker. ASRock started developing a name for itself, broke away and now is number 3 (last few times I looked, it passed MSI, and is headed towards knocking on GB's door. GSkill started getting a name for high quality and wide selection, then started pushing the envelope and heading more into performance DRAM while others stayed more static. Today GSkill has the widest selection I know of and continues to expand both in the States and world-wide....I pretty much stick w/ GSkill on all my builds unless I get a specification from a client, and even at that have more returns on Corsair, Crucial, Kingston, etc.

This is a very good point, to be honest I did not know about G.Skill until I saw them on Anandtech, and even then I said "what is this, some kind of off-brand...?" Then I saw the reviews and started taking it more seriously. The price premium issue is an important factor.

Originally posted by Tradesman View Post

Fact is, I've only had a couple of bad sticks come my way. Generally when a problem appears here, it's more likely to be the mobo (BIOS), CPU (underpowered MC), PSU (fluctuating) or people mixing sets than it is a set of DRAM. Was told be GSKill awhile back, most of the sticks they get in for RMA generally test fine, about 10% of returns are actually 'bad' sticks.

Oh yes, I can imagine. I have been building PCs since the 80's, and I had to learn about all the issues you mention the hard way ;-)

Originally posted by Tradesman View Post

Generally yes, when under clocking, it can mostly be done at the base timing level with no problem. Of course, same as with OCing, can always fine tune for better performance, but if wanting better performance, then tuning at the spec level is best.

I see. So the XMP becomes a baseline for "more" manual settings (as I have seen in reviews as well) and then you change only what you need to for higher or lower settings. I actually thought XMP was "all or nothing", but it appears you can have XMP+some changed settings... Would be nice if they put some NVRAM on RAM sitcks and allowed you to save and restore your own profiles, wouldn't take much.

Originally posted by Tradesman View Post

Yes obviously you won't have trouble with height of the sticks with a water cooler, (depending on the config, but generally No), and as with all systems you want good airflow.

I will keep an eye on that, as the water cooler doesn't cool the motherboard components or RAM as much, sometimes I put a fan in the side door blowing down on that area.

Originally posted by Tradesman View Post

I'll finish by going back to an earlier statement or two, that I normally suggest getting the fastest and getting the most you can within the budget. Mixing sets, even of the same exact model can be problematic and at time you will run into instances where two sets just won't play nice together. So if thinking 32GB, I'd go with it now as a complete set, but it's up to the individual....if going that route generally GSkill and I and others are always in and out and have helped many get mixed sets to play nice, but again, at times you can't

I understand. Well, sadly the wife is holding tight on the $200 cap, so I think I am going to have to stay with 16GB. Honestly, I sell/upgrade PCs often enough, it will be easier to go to a 32Gig kit as part of a whole build later, and at that time I will know my needs better from this experience.

So, what do you think? Go with the F3-2400C10D-16GTX kit and underclock if necessary or go with the 2133 kit F3-2133C9D-16GTX and overclock if I like?

I am leaning towards the 2133, since the i5 is not guaranteed to hit 2400, and can use the XMP at 2133 as the "safe" setting, and then play with 2400 as I see fit.

Question: Are these basically the same modules inside, just with different XMP profiles? And that is why they work at higher/lower speeds just by changing the timings yourself?

If you like this idea, I am ready to order it up.

-Jeff

**Tradesman** · 11-16-2012, 01:53 AM

Ahhh...another dinosaur from way back when, I started in 1980 with mainframes.

Many BIOS's will let you save a few profiles.

Sort of either/or, might go 2133 and if nothing else can try OCing them to 2400, if you got a good 3570K all it should really take is raising the first three of your base timings by one, and possibly adding + 0.03 or 4 to the DRAM voltage and/or maybe raising the CPUVTT a bit.

With 16GB you can always monitor usage as you go through normal days and see how much is being used and then maybe experiment with things you'd like to do (i.e. maybe VMs) to see if you really need 32GB

**jcl333** · 11-16-2012, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by Tradesman View Post

Ahhh...another dinosaur from way back when, I started in 1980 with mainframes.

Yep, I was there for that. Aside from PCs I used a "Timex Sinclair 1000"... Commodore 64/128, Amiga, and various generations of Apple/MAC, and Banyan Vines if you know what that is.

Originally posted by Tradesman View Post

Many BIOS's will let you save a few profiles.

Right, I was saying it would be great if there were memory modules that would let you save custom profiles to them, so it would theoretically be able to span machines you use them with. The machine profile is a good feature too.

Originally posted by Tradesman View Post

Sort of either/or, might go 2133 and if nothing else can try OCing them to 2400, if you got a good 3570K all it should really take is raising the first three of your base timings by one, and possibly adding + 0.03 or 4 to the DRAM voltage and/or maybe raising the CPUVTT a bit.

I will give that a try.

Originally posted by Tradesman View Post

With 16GB you can always monitor usage as you go through normal days and see how much is being used and then maybe experiment with things you'd like to do (i.e. maybe VMs) to see if you really need 32GB

Well, I honestly wasn't pushing 8GB, or only very rarely. And I only have need to run maybe 1 or 2 VMs at a time on the client side, so 16Gig I think will hold me pretty good.

I went ahead and ordered a set of F3-2133C9D-16GTX from NewEgg, should be here Tuesday or before, I will let you know.

If XMP doesn't work off the bat (but here's hoping), what are the most likely settings I might need to tweak slightly you think?

-JCL

**Tradesman** · 11-16-2012, 03:52 PM

I think they will, but if not, first thought would be to raise the CPUVTT voltage to about 1.12 check the tRFC and let me know what that is when you get them

**jcl333** · 11-16-2012, 04:27 PM

OK, will do.

-JCL

**Tradesman** · 11-16-2012, 05:35 PM

Will be looking for you Tues or so if not sooner

lots of folks come up w/ other questions while awaiting their deliveries, have a good weekend!

**jcl333** · 11-21-2012, 03:15 PM

RAM arrived yesturday

Hello Tradesman,

The RAM arrived last night, I installed it, enabled profile 1 (there are two), and everything worked on the first try without a hitch. This is actually the first time I have every bought memory where the profile worked right off the bat like that, so kudos to G.Skill.

Some notes:
* I am still working on everything installing Windows 8, so I don't have the machine all finished yet. I haven't gotten to overclocking the CPU at all either because I just bought this CPU and motherboard, so I have to playing around to do.

* Looking at CPUz, the only difference between profile 1 and profile 2 seems to be that they are 2T and 1T. I tried both of them, but they both come in at 2T regardless.

* My WEI score went from 7.8 @ 1333 to 8.1 @ 2133, not a huge increase, but I have not done any tweaking or CPU overclocking to go with it. Under Windows 7 my old memory and the new memory both peg the score at 7.9. Interestingly, because I am currently using the onboard video, the video scores went from 5.3 @ 1333 to 6.3 at 2133. This makes sense since you are using main RAM as video RAM, and that is a pretty good increase. I will look at other types of benchmarks as I have time.

* Subjectively, I was happy to see that I got he same "kick" in performance that I did on my old rig which ran at DDR3-2000, although I was only able to get there using the Intel tool. Until that time I was not sold on the benefits of faster memory. What I am talking about here is how "snappy" or responsive Windows is just clicking around, all other things being equal and just changing memory speed.

* 16GB is more than enough, especially if I use Dynamic memory. It will be interested to see if there is a measurable difference with guests running on an overclocked setup like this compared to servers at work that are limited to DDR3-1600.

* After things have been running stable for awhile, I will consider testing out DDR3-2400, right now I think I will enjoy 2133 and cruise for awhile and enjoy Thanksgiving ;-)

Thanks very much for your help and advice, happy camper so far here. If I have no reliability problems over time, then I would say these are a great alternative to Corsair at almost half the price.

-JCL

**Tradesman** · 11-21-2012, 04:16 PM

Glad to hear it, and if anything comes up, we're here to help, Enjoy!

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