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**Tradesman** · 09-08-2009, 06:24 PM

Might get 2 sticks to work (1 per channel, per AMD), but don't count on it. 4 sticks at 1066 is an even worse bet. You might get 4 sticks of 1066 to run at 800 or 900 (maybe a little better, but don't count on 1066. AMD doesn't 1066 and above, nor does it play well with more than 4GB of RAM (that's any AMD CPU, some are worse than others). Their MC 's just not up to it. To try, you'll have to add voltage about everywhere and OC the CPU,

might check this thread

http://www.gskill.us/forum/showthread.php?t=723

**Ginsok** · 09-08-2009, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by Tradesman View Post

Might get 2 sticks to work (1 per channel, per AMD), but don't count on it. 4 sticks at 1066 is an even worse bet. You might get 4 sticks of 1066 to run at 800 or 900 (maybe a little better, but don't count on 1066. AMD doesn't 1066 and above, nor does it play well with more than 4GB of RAM (that's any AMD CPU, some are worse than others). Their MC 's just not up to it. To try, you'll have to add voltage about everywhere and OC the CPU,

might check this thread

http://www.gskill.us/forum/showthread.php?t=723

Yeah had a bit of a read of the thread a while ago. See I hedged my bets that buying from one of the bigger manufacturers, I'd have my bases covered. I suppose not, and given my previous experience with the 790FX-DQ6, this is not going to be great (basically, RAM only working in the yellow DIMMs, slots 0 and 2, not 1 or 3).

Quite simply put the RAM is on it's way and I'm concerned on what I will do with it as I can't return it. I ask the questions in response to your answers:

1// In your personal opinion, can 4 sticks run at a stable 800MHz?
2// Do you feel a BIOS update would have ANY benefit in fixing the issue? At the end of the day it's the MC right, thus it's unlikely a BIOS update will yield a significant advancement.

It's funny though that you say AMD doesn't 1066 or above because GIGABYTE in their wisdom list RAM modules (stock as well as 1 overclocked) that are faster than 1066. Can you define "nor does it play well with more than 4GB etc". The more ram, the more unstable?

I can't help but gather you're saying "You'll only have the same issue you were having before with the previous 790FX board, that is, only the yellow slots will work, not the red (channel 1, DIMM 0 & 2)".

**Ginsok** · 09-08-2009, 07:58 PM

Sorry to double post but this is on a slightly related yet different matter. Honest answers though, is the G.Skill Trident (as seen here) the same piece of RAM in question F2-8500CL5D-4GBPK with the difference being a different (perhaps more premium) heatsink? My local retailers charge a large difference between the 2. Initially, I thought it was a different product line but on seeing the model numbers, they seem eerily similar, perhaps too similar.

**GSKILL TECH** · 09-09-2009, 09:49 AM

Depending on how the motherboard is designed, it may need to have memory in slot 0 and 3 before it can have memory in slots 2 and 4. If the motherboard is restricted as stated above, and it refers to the intial slots and it has nothing, of course it will not operate properly. For this motherboard, yellow slots must be used first as they are nearest to the processor. The slots nearest to the processor will always be accessed first.

4 sticks, 8GB, should be able to operate DDR2-800 as that has been proven before. BIOS updates are beneficial as they are typically revised versions of the original version. Although the actual issue is with the MC, some BIOS versions may allow for different or more advanced timing values thus making it easier for the motherboard to operate 8GB. We always suggest to have the latest BIOS.

Regarding our memory packages, although model numbers are similar, the IC chips are completely different. Our model numbers are all similar as they simply state the speed, DDR123, latency, capacity, and lastly the series type. So if you are comparing two DDR2-1066 memory packages with the same CAS latency, of course half of their model numbers will be identical. We do not waste time with having a "premium" heat sinks simply to add another model # to our line up, etc. All different series, PK, TD, PQ, NQ, etc. have different IC chips and therefore as far as performance, they will all be different.

If you don't believe me, try testing two sets. PK will have a ~.4 lower Windows Index rating than the PI since PIs are high performance gaming modules.

Thank you
GSKILL SUPPORT

**Ginsok** · 09-09-2009, 12:56 PM

Originally posted by GSKILL TECH View Post

Depending on how the motherboard is designed, it may need to have memory in slot 0 and 3 before it can have memory in slots 2 and 4. If the motherboard is restricted as stated above, and it refers to the intial slots and it has nothing, of course it will not operate properly. For this motherboard, yellow slots must be used first as they are nearest to the processor. The slots nearest to the processor will always be accessed first.

Like I've said I've tried my best to pick a well supported and large brand (GIGABYTE). The issue I had on a previous 790FX board was that, basically even having all DIMM slots filled with the same RAM would cause an error and no post. Basically inserting ANY RAM of ANY type into the 2nd and 4th slots would cause a beep (even if the other slots were also full).

4 sticks, 8GB, should be able to operate DDR2-800 as that has been proven before. BIOS updates are beneficial as they are typically revised versions of the original version. Although the actual issue is with the MC, some BIOS versions may allow for different or more advanced timing values thus making it easier for the motherboard to operate 8GB. We always suggest to have the latest BIOS.

As has been proven before? Do explain? I'll try to flash the BIOS as soon as I can. Will the operating system have any effect on the RAM? Can there be issues with RAM in going from Windows XP to Windows 7 for instance? I will be using a 64 bit version of Win 7 to make the most of it, but I've heard it can actually cause issues with AMD drivers which effects RAM.

Regarding our memory packages, although model numbers are similar, the IC chips are completely different. Our model numbers are all similar as they simply state the speed, DDR123, latency, capacity, and lastly the series type. So if you are comparing two DDR2-1066 memory packages with the same CAS latency, of course half of their model numbers will be identical. We do not waste time with having a "premium" heat sinks simply to add another model # to our line up, etc. All different series, PK, TD, PQ, NQ, etc. have different IC chips and therefore as far as performance, they will all be different.

If you don't believe me, try testing two sets. PK will have a ~.4 lower Windows Index rating than the PI since PIs are high performance gaming modules.

I'm gathering the PI is the "Trident" range? If so, I'm glad to see it's not just a different heatsink or design, but rather a different chip. Can I ask your opinion, how much would you value a PI model over say a PK model in terms of price percentage. Would a 25-35% higher cost be deemed as fair in your eyes? I'm keen to know how much value you put in the higher range (I'm not located in North America, so it's interesting to see how much my local retailer adjusts the price for the premium of having this Trident RAM).

Thank you
GSKILL SUPPORT

Really appreciate the support mate, keep it coming

**GSKILL TECH** · 09-09-2009, 03:03 PM

All DIMM slots filled causes even more of an issue since it can overload the memory controller thus causing it to not boot or POST at all. The best way to test if a slot is bad or if a memory stick is bad is by testing them one at a time. This not only isolates the hardware but produces the least amount of stress on the hardware.

The BIOS revision is different for every motherboard. It simply depends on whether or not the revision included a specific change. Some revisions may have nothing to do with memory at all, but the latest version is almost always a revised version of the old one so the new one will not be missing anything from the old one. Which BIOS version do you have? I'm not sure exactly what the changes have been throughout each version, but I know some have been updated to be able to accept more memory capatibility and that would be allowed via timings and such.

Operating systems should not be an an issue.

The G.Skill PI and Trident are the better memory packages for DDR2-1066. In terms of price percentage, it simply depends on the item. Although I do not work with pricing and such, it is a very competitive market so obviously margins are much lower. For example PK is $64.99, I believe PIs are very reasonable at $74.99, but if you notice they are being sold are pretty much the same prices. Same goes for Trident. As newer technology is released, it is natural that older technology is lowered in demand and pricing. But for many it would be a great chance to get great memory at a great price.

Now if you compare triple channel memory and other new in demand memory modules, then the margin is higher, so it simply depends since there are so many factors.

Thank you
GSKILL SUPPORT

**Ginsok** · 09-09-2009, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by GSKILL TECH View Post

All DIMM slots filled causes even more of an issue since it can overload the memory controller thus causing it to not boot or POST at all. The best way to test if a slot is bad or if a memory stick is bad is by testing them one at a time. This not only isolates the hardware but produces the least amount of stress on the hardware.

I see. Well last time I was running a 790FX board and individually tried each DIMM slot, the yellow slots worked, the red didn't (individually) and it happened on the replacement boards. Apparently the store put this down to a bad batch despite them and all their staff having a crack with different RAM timings, brands and settings etc. Having said that, back then I used a simple Dual Core Athlon of some sort which may have been a factor.

Either way, I've moved on from that onto this and will report how my experience has been.

The BIOS revision is different for every motherboard. It simply depends on whether or not the revision included a specific change. Some revisions may have nothing to do with memory at all, but the latest version is almost always a revised version of the old one so the new one will not be missing anything from the old one. Which BIOS version do you have? I'm not sure exactly what the changes have been throughout each version, but I know some have been updated to be able to accept more memory capatibility and that would be allowed via timings and such.

Great advice but I've been very unlucky on BIOS flashes in the past so doing so worries me :/

Operating systems should not be an an issue.

Great to hear.

The G.Skill PI and Trident are the better memory packages for DDR2-1066. In terms of price percentage, it simply depends on the item. Although I do not work with pricing and such, it is a very competitive market so obviously margins are much lower. For example PK is $64.99, I believe PIs are very reasonable at $74.99, but if you notice they are being sold are pretty much the same prices. Same goes for Trident. As newer technology is released, it is natural that older technology is lowered in demand and pricing. But for many it would be a great chance to get great memory at a great price.

I understand the evolution of pricing on that front. Okay let me rephrase, if the price difference between the DDR2 Trident compared to the modules discussed on topic is say 25 USD, is that too much (in your opinion). I ask this as I want to gauge what is a fair price.

**Tradesman** · 09-09-2009, 06:53 PM

I think GSkill Tech covered your questions pretty well (as usual), so for my two cents as an add on, I'll just throw out a personal opinion:

Intel is far and away the CPU market leader. AMD, in it's quest to gain market share is/has been taking the price point as it's competitive advantage. In order to do this the R&D isn't pushed to the degree Intel pushes, thus the implementation of technical advances is lower than that of Intel and it's CPUs. This seems to be notable with their onboard MC. Most of their CPUs have a hard time living up to noted RAM speeds with even 2-4 GBs RAM, let alone trying 8 (in some cases 6) GB. The MC just isn't up to it...with the caveat of - without adding a lot of juice (here and there, both to CPU and RAM itself) which adds heat throughout the system and associated components. And...if you do that, you'll find that their CPUs have a more controlled voltage limit, thus OC limit than do Intel chips i.e. take the old Q6600, debuted in 2007, 1066 FSB rating, 2.4GNZ, 1.5 voltage max, etc. On air, these will run at 1600 FSB, 3.6GHZ at less than 1.375 volts and with good cooling will ease up to 4GHz, still at less than 1.42. Same basically with others like the e8400, E8500, Q8400, etc, etc. To this day the Q6600 (two years old) will give a AMD 965 a run for it's money (for less money).
Big thing is everyone want the latest and greatest...but...older Intel chips will run circles around the latest greatest AMD chips (granted OCed..but that's computing), and will further outperform them by being able to utilize more memory and a greater integration with 64 bit MS products.
Sorry bout that, I'll hop off the soapbox now.

**Ginsok** · 09-09-2009, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by Tradesman View Post

I think GSkill Tech covered your questions pretty well (as usual), so for my two cents as an add on, I'll just throw out a personal opinion:

Intel is far and away the CPU market leader. AMD, in it's quest to gain market share is/has been taking the price point as it's competitive advantage. In order to do this the R&D isn't pushed to the degree Intel pushes, thus the implementation of technical advances is lower than that of Intel and it's CPUs. This seems to be notable with their onboard MC. Most of their CPUs have a hard time living up to noted RAM speeds with even 2-4 GBs RAM, let alone trying 8 (in some cases 6) GB. The MC just isn't up to it...with the caveat of - without adding a lot of juice (here and there, both to CPU and RAM itself) which adds heat throughout the system and associated components. And...if you do that, you'll find that their CPUs have a more controlled voltage limit, thus OC limit than do Intel chips i.e. take the old Q6600, debuted in 2007, 1066 FSB rating, 2.4GNZ, 1.5 voltage max, etc. On air, these will run at 1600 FSB, 3.6GHZ at less than 1.375 volts and with good cooling will ease up to 4GHz, still at less than 1.42. Same basically with others like the e8400, E8500, Q8400, etc, etc. To this day the Q6600 (two years old) will give a AMD 965 a run for it's money (for less money).
Big thing is everyone want the latest and greatest...but...older Intel chips will run circles around the latest greatest AMD chips (granted OCed..but that's computing), and will further outperform them by being able to utilize more memory and a greater integration with 64 bit MS products.
Sorry bout that, I'll hop off the soapbox now.

What you add is worth reading and raises good points. I'd actually like to point out I went from Q6600 to Phenom 9950. Some may see it as a step down, but I think the platform I'm working with is okay enough and somewhat better than the P965 I previously had. Intel is such a large entity now, you only have to look as far as youtube to see how hard it pushes itself.

To be fair, both products are great, given that I get good bang for buck with AMD I'm going to continue to buck the trend and stay with them for now. My RAM shall be arriving back from the store any minute now, will let you know how it all goes.

**Tradesman** · 09-09-2009, 09:57 PM

Just finished your PM, and glanced through the above again. Yes, I think you will be able to run the 4 sticks at 800 without any real problem (and to be honest, I doubt you'll really 'see' any difference between 800 and 1066, except maybe in benchmark scores and possibly a hair's difference in gaming.

and in your latest post, the 965 board would limit you a bit, but if you still have the Q6600 around and have a bit of money to play with, you might look at getting a EP45-UD3R mobo (Gigabyte), you can definitely run 8GB of 1066 on it, with a decent cooler (Zalman 9500 or better, Freezer Pro 7) and PSU you could set it up to easily run 3.6GHz 24/7 (and that's the older Q w/ the B3 stepping not the G0). That's what I currently have in my secondary/test bed system.

When you get the RAM let us know, if I can't help...or even if I can....maybe Genetix will hop in too, he's pretty tight on both AMD and Intel boxes.

**GSKILL TECH** · 09-10-2009, 08:28 AM

I understand the evolution of pricing on that front. Okay let me rephrase, if the price difference between the DDR2 Trident compared to the modules discussed on topic is say 25 USD, is that too much (in your opinion). I ask this as I want to gauge what is a fair price.

For example PK is $64.99, I believe PIs are very reasonable at $74.99, but if you notice they are being sold are pretty much the same prices.

I think they are worth $10 more for DDR2-1066, but like I said as well, newer technology such as Trident 2000 and such is a different story... $25 more for PI would be a little too much. Although they are better IC chips and performance, the performance gain is minimal. It's not like you will be able to notice an obvious speed difference, only during benchmarking and possibly gaming if you are observant.

Thank you
GSKILL SUPPORT

**Ginsok** · 09-10-2009, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by Tradesman View Post

Just finished your PM, and glanced through the above again. Yes, I think you will be able to run the 4 sticks at 800 without any real problem (and to be honest, I doubt you'll really 'see' any difference between 800 and 1066, except maybe in benchmark scores and possibly a hair's difference in gaming.

and in your latest post, the 965 board would limit you a bit, but if you still have the Q6600 around and have a bit of money to play with, you might look at getting a EP45-UD3R mobo (Gigabyte), you can definitely run 8GB of 1066 on it, with a decent cooler (Zalman 9500 or better, Freezer Pro 7) and PSU you could set it up to easily run 3.6GHz 24/7 (and that's the older Q w/ the B3 stepping not the G0). That's what I currently have in my secondary/test bed system.

When you get the RAM let us know, if I can't help...or even if I can....maybe Genetix will hop in too, he's pretty tight on both AMD and Intel boxes.

I should also state I too run B3 stepping on the Q6600. What sucks is that I paid 700ish then maybe a month after, G0 came about and the priced halved. Was completely crushed but that was pretty much one of the worst weeks of my life compounded by a tooth ache and a tonne of RMAs.

Personally though, if I can run 4 sticks for a total of 8GB at 800MHz for now, I'll be fine, but I will want to play around a bit and explore. It's like saying if I buy a proper Landrover and it works, I'll be happy, but I'll be happier to give it some proper use in Africa if you understand what I'm saying :P

Originally posted by GSKILL TECH View Post

I think they are worth $10 more for DDR2-1066, but like I said as well, newer technology such as Trident 2000 and such is a different story... $25 more for PI would be a little too much. Although they are better IC chips and performance, the performance gain is minimal. It's not like you will be able to notice an obvious speed difference, only during benchmarking and possibly gaming if you are observant.

Firstly I really appreciate the honesty in this post. What I felt has happened is that retailer has bought a pair when they were obviously very pricey, and they don't want to make such a loss on the item now even though somewhat the technology has evolved and shifted elsewhere. It's not like I can ask the store to drop the price, because they are after money to cover their loss for bringing it in so early, but I'm not going to pay that much for what is a small increase in performance, especially given the price.

**Tradesman** · 09-10-2009, 05:52 PM

ON the B3 vs the G0, people were still getting the B3 from retailers here in the states over a year after the G0 came out, it was just hit or miss when you ordered, unless you got it at a store and could check it out. Even the B3 is a Fantastic OCer.

And yes, I hear ya on the Rover and understand completely

**Ginsok** · 09-19-2009, 07:40 AM

Okay so first things first the build went well for the most part and the RAM all works. But to confirm what version of memtest is recommended for me to use? Also I'm only running at 800MHz so I look forward to adjusting it to the 1066MHz that it should run at. Also running the latest BIOS. I'll post pictures later on.

I do have a strong concern and that is the memory is massively hot. Enough to burn. I've used very basic OEM DDR 800MHz RAM in the past and it never got hot, this though is scalding hot. I might take some pictures of the motherboard but I was wondering if this was normal (possibly due to the heatsink)?

If I removed 2 sticks I'm guessing the machine would be less stressed??

If you require certain pictures of the BIOS or board layout give me a yell as I'm just looking for more information.

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F2-8500CL5D-4GBPK on MA790FX-UD5P

F2-8500CL5D-4GBPK on MA790FX-UD5P

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