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  • G.Skill F4-3333C16Q-32GTZB - What Samsung Die?

    This may be a dumb question but how can I find out if my G.Skill F4-3333C16Q-32GTZB is Samsung B die? I downloaded Thaiphoon Burner and did a Read of the DIMMs. The report says they are Samsung model K4A4G085WE-BCPB, DRAM Device Package Standard Monolithic, 78 Ball FBGA, Single Die. It also says Module Speed Grade is DDR4-2133P down bin. Not sure what that means. It also says Base Module Type is UDIMM which confuses me because reading about DDR4 DIMM types (UDIMM, RDIMM, LRDIMM, LRDIMM 3DS TSV, NVDIMM) indicates UDIMMs are the cheapest and lowest performing type. From the book "DDR4 for Dummies" (me):

    "Unbuffered dual in‐line memory module (UDIMM) is the most
    cost efficient memory. It’s usually used in cost conscious
    servers (such as the HPE ML10 or DL20) and is subject to
    certain limitations. It’s not ideal for highest speeds due to
    high loadings on the command/address signals and you can
    only populate a maximum of 2 DIMMs per channel."

    The text also seems to say that DDR4 DIMMs for Haswell are different than for Broadwell though I may be mis-interpreting the text:

    "Back in DDR3‐land, you had the choice among three different
    types of DIMMs (UDIMMs, RDIMMs, LRDIMMs). The choices
    for DDR4 were narrowed down with the launch of Xeon v3
    (Haswell) to two types, RDIMMs and LRDIMMs. The main
    reason UDIMMs were left out this time is that at higher DDR4
    speeds you won’t get any advantage over RDIMMs anymore
    when it comes to performance and reliability. With the intro-
    duction of Broadwell (Xeon v4), UDIMMs are coming back as
    HPE Standard Memory on HPE 10/100 Series rack and tower
    server,"

    I have attached the Thaiphoon read dump.

    Can anyone help me out here? I am reading up on memory in general and DDR4 in particular and for starters want to know if my sticks are B- die which seems to be preferred.


    Thanks !
    Attached Files

  • #2
    Originally posted by BillB View Post
    This may be a dumb question but how can I find out if my G.Skill F4-3333C16Q-32GTZB is Samsung B die? I downloaded Thaiphoon Burner and did a Read of the DIMMs. The report says they are Samsung model K4A4G085WE-BCPB
    K4A4G085WE-BCPB so these are 4Gbit E-Die (Product Page).

    Originally posted by BillB View Post
    It also says Base Module Type is UDIMM which confuses me because reading about DDR4 DIMM types (UDIMM, RDIMM, LRDIMM, LRDIMM 3DS TSV, NVDIMM) indicates UDIMMs are the cheapest and lowest performing type.
    The U in UDIMM stands for unbuffered and is the type of memory commonly used in desktop computers. Workstations can also use UDIMM but are more likely to employ ECC UDIMM and servers generally use some type of RDIMM (FB-DIMM, LRDIMM, LRDIMM 3DS TSV, ...). NVDIMM are a special case, if you want to learn more about it start with http://www.vikingtechnology.com/nvdimm-faq or http://www.jedec.org/sites/default/f...Forum_2014.pdf. So these are different types of memory for different use cases and by comparing prices between them you can't deduce any information about performance.

    Originally posted by BillB View Post
    Can anyone help me out here? I am reading up on memory in general and DDR4 in particular and for starters want to know if my sticks are B- die which seems to be preferred.
    What type of system are we talking about (CPU, MB)?

    B-Die is what overclockers prefer at the moment because they scale very well in frequency & timings & volts and can take a lot of the latter. You can hit a high frequency at moderate volts, but a good kit can also be used for benchmarks at DDR4-4000/4133 CL12 with 1.9V(+) on Intel Skylake and Kaby Lake (LGA1151, Z170/Z270 chipset). So if you are just looking for a 24/7 kit, you probably don't have to return you current kit to go hunting for good 8Gbit B-Die Samsungs. If you have to do it anyways, look for G.SKILLs DDR4-3200 CL14, 3600 CL15/CL16 variants or if money is not an issue the highest end 2x8GB/4x8GB parts (4000 CL18/CL19, 4133 CL19) - but be prepared to manually adjust timings and or voltages.
    Team HardwareLUXX | Show off your G.SKILL products!

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    • #3
      G.Skill F4-3333C16Q-32GTZB

      Thank you for your prompt and detailed reply. Here are my rig specs:

      Asus X99-Deluxe II
      Intel i7-5820K
      G.Skill F4-3333C16Q-32GTZB
      Asus R9290-DC20C-4GD5 GPU
      EVGA SuperNOVA 1200 P2
      Corsair H110i GT
      Samsung 850 Pro (512 GB) (x2)
      Western Digital Caviar Black 2TB (x2)
      Corsair 780T Case (Black)

      I bought the components to build this rig last July. I have not done a build since X58 so I was a bit behind the times. The Asus X99-Deluxe II specs said maximum DRAM speed is 3333 MHz. At that time, the MOBO was listed in the G.Skill QVL for the F4-3333C16Q-32GTZB kit and the G.Skill kit was listed in the X99-Deluxe II QVL. So since each manufacturer's QVL listed the other's components, I figured the best way to ensure being able to OC the DRAM to 3333 MHz was to buy a kit rated for that speed and on the QVL list. At that time, neither G.Skill's nor Asus's QVLs specifed Broadwell-E only. Now G.Skill's QVL does specify Broadwell-E only.

      That kit only has 1 XMP profile - DDR4-3334 @1.35V VDIMM. So I built the machine and loaded up Win10 Pro-64, went into the BIOS and enabled the XMP profile and thought I would boot up to stable memory running that profile. I probably don't have to tell you that did not work out too well. After much reading and posting on overclock forums (and this one), I slowly learned that I had made a very wrong assumption. I have been able to get the kit stable at 2666 MHz but no more. I have tried and tried to hit 3000 MHz. and 3200 MHz. - CPU clock at default, Strap - 100, Strap - 125, VDIMM up to 1.45V, VCCSA up to 1.15V, VCCIO up to 1.10V, CPU Input Voltage up to 1.95V, entering primary timings manually - all no dice past 2666 MHz. Usually can't even get it to post. The few times it got to the OS, it was not stable at all.

      In my reading, I learned that all the successful over-clockers were usually using Samsung B-Die DIMMs, and the G.Skill F4-3200C14Q-32GTxxx DDR4 kits. Some of the experts were kind enough to send me BIOS text dumps and detailed instructions - no dice past 2666 MHz. I also learned that due to the limitation of the IMC on the Haswell-E CPUs, that it was pretty unlikely that I would ever get my kit past 3000 MHz. My CPU will do 4.5GHz at VCore of 1.28V so the chip is not too bad in that regard. I also learned that overclocking the DRAM yields much less of a performance gain than overclocking the CPU, and an unstable DRAM overclock can possibly result in data loss or even screw up the OS. So I settled in at 4.5GHz CPU with 2666 MHz DRAM and kind of gave up on it.

      I thought maybe I would upgrade the CPU to a Broadwell-E chip and try again but now with Kabylake out and people hitting 5GHz+ CPU and 4GHz DRAM, I am less inclined to invest in Broadwell-E. The thing is to go to Kabylake, I have to buy a new CPU, new MOBO, and probably a new DRAM kit. I was starting to shop for parts for a Kabylake build with a new Asus Z-270 MOBO with a Q270 chipset, and then along comes Ryzen and rumors that Intel is going to drop prices and/or release an i7-7740K with a 4.3GHz base clock and 4.6Ghz Turbo Boost frequency. And then there is Optane.... It never stops!

      As for the G.Skill F4-3333C16Q-32GTZB kit I bought, I could put it in a Kabylake build. The Asus Z270 MOBOs are listed in the G.Skill QVL for that kit but I am not inclined to pull the kit from my 6 month old X99 build. Better to leave that rig intact and just get a new DRAM kit for the new build. So I have been reading up on DDR4 DRAM and playing around with programs like Thaiphoon Burner. I think I can even write a 2nd XMP profile into the DIMMs with that program - maybe a more conservative profile that has a chance of booting. What I don't want to do is make another uninformed mistake like I did last time.

      Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it! I still don't quite understand the G.Skill part numbering convention. On G.Skill's site under Trident Series, I can select 32 Gig (8 Gig X 4) Dual Channel or Quad Channel, 3200 MHz tested speed, 14-14-14-34-2N and get the following part numbers.

      Dual Channel - F4-3200C14Q-32GTZ
      Quad Channel - F4-3200C14Q-32GTZSW

      If I understand G.Skill's part numbering scheme, the SW at the end of the Quad Channel part number indicates the color scheme of the DIMMs and nothing more. Take that away and they are the same part number. If I select them and Compare, I see the attached image.

      The specs are exactly the same except one says Dual Channel and one says Quad Channel. They have the same part number except for the suffix which I am pretty sure just indicates color. They both are 8GB x 4 DIMM kits. I posted a question on this forum asking what the difference is and the answer I eventually got from GSKLL TECH was "Dual Channel is designed for Z170 chip set Quad Channel is designed for X99 chip set. Take a look at the QVL list for compatible motherboards. XMP is designed for the specific platform. A quad channel CPU vs. dual channel requires different settings/Voltages. For this reason it is imperative to check G.Skill QVL list and which motherboards are fully certified." Well the voltages and timings look the same to me.

      I understand that the Z170 platform is Dual Channel and X99 is Quad Channel. That's why I got a 4x8GB kit instead of a 2x16GB kit. I still don't fully understand the difference between these two part numbers, or what the difference is between B-Die and E-Die. Can you help me out with this and any advice on trying to get the kit running a 3000 MHz on my current X99 rig?

      Thanks in advance
      Attached Files
      Last edited by BillB; 02-13-2017, 07:17 PM. Reason: Add attachment

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by BillB View Post
        I have tried and tried to hit 3000 MHz. and 3200 MHz. - CPU clock at default, Strap - 100, Strap - 125, VDIMM up to 1.45V, VCCSA up to 1.15V, VCCIO up to 1.10V, CPU Input Voltage up to 1.95V, entering primary timings manually - all no dice past 2666 MHz.
        DDR4-3000/3200 are considered the upped end of memory ratios for Broadwell/Haswell-E, so depending on your board manual settings are required and sadly that can include secondary/tertiary timings, which is a lot of work for a overclocking novice. So if you can't get the XMP working with the latest BIOS version and managed to find a working setting for DDR4-2666 then you'd either have to stick to that or dive deeper into manual timings.

        Originally posted by BillB View Post
        In my reading, I learned that all the successful over-clockers were usually using Samsung B-Die DIMMs, and the G.Skill F4-3200C14Q-32GTxxx DDR4 kits.
        Well, for LGA2011-3 in a 24/7 system it shouldn't matter too much, which memory IC you use, since there is already plenty of memory bandwidth available because of the quad channel architecture. While a F4-3200C14Q-32GTZ variant would be a good fit in theory, unless you plan to use the system primarily for benchmarking, you are probably better of with a lower rated kit, if you don't want to risk manually setting dozens of memory related timings and voltages.

        Originally posted by BillB View Post
        I was starting to shop for parts for a Kabylake build with a new Asus Z-270 MOBO with a Q270 chipset
        Z270 and Q270 are two different chipsets. The Z270 is the unlocked part with overclocking support, the Q270 is a business part with added management functionality that has no overclocking capabilities.

        Originally posted by BillB View Post
        So I have been reading up on DDR4 DRAM and playing around with programs like Thaiphoon Burner. I think I can even write a 2nd XMP profile into the DIMMs with that program - maybe a more conservative profile that has a chance of booting. What I don't want to do is make another uninformed mistake like I did last time.
        I would recommend against messing with the SPD programming unless you actually know what you are doing and are ok with voiding warranty.

        Originally posted by BillB View Post
        Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it! I still don't quite understand the G.Skill part numbering convention.
        The G.SKILL FAQ has a key to the naming scheme: http://gskill.com/en/faq/DRAM_Memory

        Originally posted by BillB View Post
        F4-3200C14Q-32GTZ
        F4-3200C14Q-32GTZSW

        If I understand G.Skill's part numbering scheme, the SW at the end of the Quad Channel part number indicates the color scheme of the DIMMs and nothing more.
        Yes, the -SW is the silver white Trident Z variant. I am just a regular user here in the forums and a G.SKILL customer like you, so i can't tell you if there are any further differences in the advanced timings to optimise compatibility for either dual (LGA1151) or quad channel (2011-3) platforms.

        Originally posted by BillB View Post
        Well the voltages and timings look the same to me.
        There are other (secondary) timings, you can not see in the specs.

        Originally posted by BillB View Post
        or what the difference is between B-Die and E-Die.
        Two different memory ICs produced by Samsung. What usually is called E-die are Samsung 4Gbit E-Die aka K4A4G085WE and B-Die are actually Samsung 8Gbit B-Die aka K4A8G085WB. Apart from the different memory density between those two parts, in general each IC has it's very own scaling characteristics. The popularity of Samsung 8Gbit B-Die for Skylake and Kaby Lake comes from its ability to scale to high memory frequencies with decent timings at moderate voltage and also allowing tighter timings with additional voltage (for benchmarking).

        Originally posted by BillB View Post
        Can you help me out with this and any advice on trying to get the kit running a 3000 MHz on my current X99 rig?
        Sadly i don' think so, since i skipped LGA2011-3 completely.
        Last edited by emissary42; 02-15-2017, 04:56 PM.
        Team HardwareLUXX | Show off your G.SKILL products!

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks for all of your answers. Yes I was confused about Z270 and Q270. Always learning. I got my G.Skill F4-3333C16Q-32GTZB kit at a super discounted price so I guess that is a good thing. It will do 2666 without too much fuss. I might get it to 3000 (stable) one of these days. Some guys on another forum have been trying to help me out with primary, secondary, and tertiary timings. I might find the golden combination yet for my CPU and DRAM.

          As for reprogramming the DIMMs - yes I don’t think I have the expertise for that. I don't have to enable XMP or write a more attainable profile into the DIMMs - I can try to tweak them manually in the Asus BIOS which is pretty detailed. You can manually set just about everything and the DRAM timing menus are extensive. Enough to keep me busy (and confused) for a long time!

          As I said, I was thinking about upgrading to a Broadwell-E CPU but then I was getting the itch to build a Kabylake rig. Now Ryzen is coming out and the anticipation is building up. Never used an AMD CPU before (probably like a lot of people) but Ryzen may just be the platform that changes all of that. Time will tell. At least I think we will see a drop in Intel’s prices so best to wait awhile.

          I can chalk this rig up to a learning experience. It's not a bad setup, Plenty fast for what I use it for. I did not set out to build a gaming machine. If I had, I would not have gone with a 5820K 6-Core CPU. I also did not set out to build an overclocking competition machine. I just wanted to upgrade from X58 and DDR3 to a newer CPU, chipset, and DDR4, which I accomplished. My machine won't set any records but it's plenty fast enough for me. Overclocking it is just a hobby and a way to learn.

          Thanks again. Your answers helped me out a lot.

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